Yesterday we linked to the recent survey results from the City of Rochester that will be used to develop the new City Center Master Plan. We mentioned that the data was not surprising and that it might have been more useful if the information was more detailed.
The City asked only simple answers and then collated them. There is little to pull apart for further analysis. That’s too bad.
The city center is already a great place for restaurants and entertainment. It is poised to once again be the center of the community as more and more educated, well off people- of all ages- move back downtown. The tipping point is approaching and then there will be a flood of new businesses.
Those of us who are downtown often see this happening. Downtown has a great feel and if anything the most negative vibe is its continued relative emptiness at certain times. That’s what is bothersome about the survey data. It seems oddly out of tune with the reality. It seems like the same survey data from ten years ago and twenty years ago. So much has changed downtown, why hasn’t the survey data?
I believe the survey remains the same because the questions were largely answered by residents who don’t go downtown.
I think the respondents are expressing the same worn replies based on old perceptions and not current experience. What the city should have done (and I don’t know that they didn’t; I’m just working off of what they released) was to ask respondents their age, their present neighborhood, the last time they were downtown, how often they visit in a month or year, and what was the purpose of their last three visits.
Many more inferences could be drawn from that kind of data. For example, if the preponderance of respondents haven’t been downtown in a year, then their motives are more than lack of retail stores and feeling unsafe.
Shopping is an habitual activity, that is, once a customer has been hooked into a shopping experience they will continue it and not change unless there is a great disturbance to their perceptions. It is likely that the dominant reason people don’t go downtown is because they shop elsewhere. Going downtown is just not on their radar. That is the real reason, not lack of stores.
This also suggests something else: That shopping is the dominant, perceived motive for why one goes downtown. “Why don’t you go downtown? “Because there are no stores.” Are there other reasons to go downtown besides shopping?” “I suppose so, but I don’t know what they are.”
Who is the respondent here? An older suburban person, most likely. One who probably remembers when downtown was THE hub of shopping in Rochester, the of Sibleys and before malls. If you ask the same questions of a 25-30 something it’s unlikely the concept of shopping even enters into their thinking! Downtown is where you eat, drink, dance, go to good movies, see art and listen to music. “Shopping? Nobody shops downtown.”
Different orientations, opposing perceptions based upon age and experience.
These are solid illustrations of the limitations of the data the city collected. To come up with any meaningful conclusions, certainly meaningful enough to effect decisions on the Master Plan, more sophisticated data and analysis, is required.
The important question for the Master Plan is this: “What age group do we most want answers from?”
We’ll discuss this issue further this week.
Written by: Pete Tonery
Tags: downtown, city center, downtown attitudes, city of rochester, downtown rochester, downtown development, downtown revitalization, downtown news, city of rochester news, rochester news,
9 Comments
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I am a long-time RCSD teacher, and I have been in and around downtown for much of the past 4 years. Previous to that, I was at a more geographically peripheral school.
People from the suburbs who go downtown are generally going to a Red Wings, Amerks or Knighthawks game, Geva, Eastman or the Little Theater or Dinosaur BBQ. (Broad generalization, but ask any suburbanite what else there is to do, they’ll mention crime before they mention anything else.)
Why do people leave their homes (generally)? Work, school, dining, entertainment, shopping.
Work has been leaving downtown for a long time. Those who do work downtown have to deal with parking issues that don’t exist in the suburbs. In fact, today a neighbor of mine specifically complained about new parking policies that cost a friend of his $20 instead of $10. The new parking machines are good for Rochester’s revenue, I’m sure, but those of us who rarely go enjoyed the occasional meter with 20 minutes left. Parking is a major problem; suburbanites are not used to paying for parking.
School? Sure, there’s some college annexes, but who, besides Eastman School students are actually staying downtown? How many commuters stick around to do anything but attend class?
Dining… there’s a few places to eat downtown. Most of them are pretty high quality as well. You’re still dealing with parking issues as well as perceptions of safety. Unfortunately, there’s a reason Olive Garden and Applebee’s are profitable and nation-wide – most Americans don’t care about the high quality of the prices match and the parking is tough &/or costly.
Entertainment: If it’s downtown it generally costs a chunk; especially if you’re buying more than 2 tickets. However, where can you go after the event to enjoy a meal and/or adult beverages? Dinosaur is always busy and parking is onerous. The Water Street restaurants are not very well known and are not really within walking distance of any thing but the Water Street Music Hall. They’re also rather small. You’re also still dealing with perception of safety issues. Events end late enough, that a meal and drinks will end late and people just do not want to be downtown at 10, 11 o’clock in the evening.
As for shopping… it barely exists downtown. Be honest… if I can get the same stuff at any suburban mall and not pay $5-10 for parking, why would I go downtown?
Let us not forget the red light cameras. They may not be located in the inner loop, but they are a major factor in keeping people out of the city.
Downtown has HUGE potential. We’ve got a solid base on which to bring people back downtown, but we are NOT going to quickly do it by working piecemeal. A massive investment in an entertainment/retail complex that is easy to get to, well-lit and family-friendly is the only thing that will do it any time soon. The east side of the river from High Falls to Main Street would be perfect for this sort of thing, as would the “re-fill Broad Street with the Canal” idea. If Rochester even tried something like this, we’d likely screw it up – the Fast Ferry only being one of many ideas the City has had trouble executing well.
The only real option to keep downtown alive is a long-term solution that must be maintained over a number of years: continue to fill it in with housing, leaving areas available for retail and entertainment when critical mass of population is achieved. The housing must continue to be attractive and affordable enough for people to WANT to live there, and we need to enact REAL reforms to the school district – the kind of reforms that address the root problems: poverty, social promotion, poverty and the cyclical failure engendered by broken homes and teenage parents. Reforming teachers won’t cut it – too few of us need it to make enough of a difference. Reforms that actually make a difference and aren’t just re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic are the only way to keep young families in the city once they’ve reproduced.
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Right on. Most studies show that mixed-use is the answer for struggling areas. This is why I’m so supportive of the residential expansion we’ve seen (lofts and such) in downtown Rochester.
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Well, Yogoboy I do not share your negative feelings about downtown.
You seem to be criticizing downtown’s virtues. It is the center for arts, culture and entertainment. The fact that tickets are expensive is irrelevant- tickets are expensive everywhere including crap arena’s like Darrian Lake. The BEST restaurants are downtown. There are plenty of places to park- almost entirely free after 6pm nearly anywhere. If there is a big event then one does have to pay or walk. No different from CMAC.
Your complaints are not why people don’t go downtown. Lethargy and ignorance keeps most people away. The 800lb gorilla in these conversations is always Greece where residents seem to take a perverse pride in declaring that they, “never go downtown.”
I don’t admire the hubris of ignorance or fear.
We at Rocville are committed to reenforcing the truth that the CITY of Rochester is the economic, cultural and self-identity of Greater Rochester.
What does that mean? The city is the heart of the community. Without a central sense of identity we are a collection of disassociated, disinterested little towns- none much caring about the next. None much better.
We live in ROCHESTER not just a particular suburb. It is the city, its industry, arts, sports, educational opportunities, resources, viewpoint, and involved self interest that attract new businesses, new ventures, new people. By paying attention to the vitality and benefits of our city, our core, we make the greater community stronger and more attractive.
The Midwest is littered with ghost towns- many from the last 50 years. A central core, a positive community identity, a strong arts/cultural/educational base (and commitment) produces an attractive community- one people want to stay in and move too.
With respect, your tone reminds me of my own back in the day. I grew up in Rochester and believed, “there was noting to do.” Decades later I realize it was me, not Rochester. I have lived other places, notably LA and Boston, and Rochester is a hell of a good city to live in. Sports, art, culture, RPO, theater, world class music, festivals, short travel distances, an amazingly good climate, beautiful landscapes and parks and an amazing educational base make Rochester equal or superior to plenty of other, bigger cities.
Look on the bright side!
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Mr. Tonery, I’m not looking to argue your points, many of which are valid. I’m hoping to explain, as a long-time suburbanite who has lived on both sides of the county, what the impressions I get from people are of downtown. I also think I did a decent job of explaining some of downtown’s real limitations.
While the best restaurants may, in fact, be downtown, you should probably use some of this space to review them and bring awareness to them. Most suburbanites only know Dinosaur BBQ.
Promotion of the city’s virtues and benefits of the city is all well and good, but until we recognize the flaws and flawed perceptions (and the reasons for both) all the promotion in the world ain’t gonna help. The Rochester metro is a good region to live in, for a variety of reasons – the city proper is a separate discussion altogether.
Your article, as well as your response to my comments, offer no specifics to actually motivate people to go to downtown and find something different from their current perceptions. The closest you come is this sentence: “Sports, art, culture, RPO, theater, world class music, festivals, short travel distances, an amazingly good climate, beautiful landscapes and parks and an amazing educational base make Rochester equal or superior to plenty of other, bigger cities.” You challenge people without offering a reason to take you up on your challenge. Even as a city teacher, I’d have to wonder at your statement about the educational base. Despite my best efforts, and those of my colleagues, our students continue to do poorly (reasons for which constitute an entirely different discussion).
I know I mentioned the sports and theaters – those are the reasons people DO come downtown. They don’t stay for the other stuff, generally.
The “short travel distances” work both ways – it’s not that far from the city to less crowded parking, driving and shopping. Both Greece Ridge and Marketplace Malls are on RTS lines.
Be honest, our “amazingly good climate” is less “good” than it is “not as bad as it could be.” Our climate misses out on many extremes – cold, hot, wet, and dry. San Diego and Honolulu have “amazingly good climates”.
Rochester’s landscapes and parks are nice, but what, besides the zoo, differentiates the city’s parks enough from Greece Canal Park, Perinton Park, Mendon Ponds and a dozen other suburban parks to draw people to the city?
For a variety of reasons, I would love, yes LOVE, to see Rochester turn the corner and become the great city it once was. There are a variety of reasons it is not. While your promotion of the virtues is necessary and good, a gimlet-eyed look at why Rochester of 2013 is not prospering as it could is also an important element for helping Rochester achieve what it once was and what it can become.
As for the bright side… if you knew me, you’d know this IS my bright side.
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Agree with the comment about Greece Pete. I presently live in Greece and we spend lots of time going down town for the restaurants, pubs and entertainment. Most of my contemporaries here have a perception that there is nothing to do or see and that it is crime ridden. I’ve had a difficult time changing the perception over the years and often lead people on “field trips” to visit various interesting and historical sites followed up by visiting top notch bars and eating establishments. Keep up your great efforts! Dan Pearl
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Pete, it sounds like you did not take the survey, which is too bad . It did ask about where you live, how often you visit downtown etc. As for the perceived safety – some of that is simply that people don’t feel safe in deserted areas. And much of downtown is empty at night., Businesses closed and no one on the street. People would not feel safe at a deserted suburban strip mall either. A big part of the answer is more people living downtown, creating life on the street. Suburbanites driving in occasionally for special events isn’t enough to sustain a thriving downtown and, as others have mentioned, suburbanites will always be concerned about parking. People who live in the city will walk places. Since I moved back to the city, I only get in my car a few times a week – when I lived in the burbs it was a few times a day.
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Yes, Irene. I took the survey and remember one of the first questions being whether you were a city resident or not (I don’t think it asked specifics on which city neighborhood or which suburb, which could give some insight into walkability and perception).
I agree — suburbanites driving in for events isn’t enough to sustain a thriving downtown. We need people living in the city. We live in the city, have one car and walk/ride bikes everywhere we can. And we choose to run errands and frequent retail and restaurants that are close because we like walking and biking there (even in the winter).
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Thanks for your reply Irene ( a lovely name- my grandmother’s).
It doesn’t matter that the city asked the question; what matters is if they used that data in their analysis. They didn’t offer that info on their site.
If survey results show that 1/3 of respondents “don’t feel safe,” but 65% of that group doesn’t even go downtown, that data is pretty much useless.
If one hasn’t visited the City Center in many months or years an opinion about it’s safety- or any other aspect- is essentially prejudice (An opinion about a thing not based on evidence or experience.)
Who wants to base development decisions on prejudice?
What I was driving at is that the City needed to certify respondents. The collected replies run across a spectrum from “no experience” to “daily experience.” The VALUE of the responses is hugely different.
If the city asked about frequency of visits (certifying knowledge) but did not incorporate that into skewing the results, the results are not reliable or informative.
Also, I think we often discuss downtown at cross purposes. In its heyday, downtown was busy and prosperous because businesses and professionals were all located there. Up until about the middle-late 70’s virtually EVERY dentist (of any sort) had their offices in the Temple Building. Every schoolkid with braces took the bus downtown every couple of weeks for a tune up. Cavities and cleanings? Downtown.
The rest of the city was occupied by businesses, big and small. Most major businesses, Riedman Insurance, banks, all kinds of office work used all that empty space we see today. Sibley’s was what, 6 stories of retail? McCurdy’s, Woolworths, Midtown…the city was loaded with retail. People worked AND shopped there. Downtown was the center of Christmas sales too.
Downtown was NOT where people lived however. There was the Cadillac Hotel, the CYO, etc. but not “housing” as we think of it today. When the City Center was the center of commerce it was absent housing.
So, those days are gone. They will not be returning in that density/magnitude/character. So what does the City Center become? What can people do to make sure suburbanites CARE about the city and it’s health & vitality?
I say, start with ensuring the arts stay downtown. The RPO/Eastman Theater/Eastman School is the anchor. Then Geva, Hochstein, MAG, the Neighborhood of the Arts, etc.
Next, keep the music and free/cheap festivals downtown. Get YOUNG people to go downtown and experience it as a good, fun place. Get STUDENTS into the city. Concentrate activities that bring young people (21+) into the area. By doing this we raise a new generation which is not connected to old perceptions (“no retail,” “don’t feel safe,” etc.)
By making an “entertaining” environment the City is becoming attractive to young unmarrieds and older empty nesters. This is new life for the city. This is , honestly, a new USE of the city.
THAT is what is important. My issue with the survey is that it keeps regurgitating the same old biases. If a person fears downtown what is the likelihood they will visit it? Political campaigners live and die by voter rolls. They get the list of voters in a district and see who votes and with what consistency. They then focus their time, money and attention on a the hierarchy of voter: the more often and dependable a voter is, the more attention they get. Campaigns IGNORE opposing party members, the unregistered, and folks with poor voting records. It is efficient and practical: Don’t waste time on non-voters.
That is what applies to data on the City Center. Don’t waste time on the ignorant and prejudiced. If a respondents biggest concern is parking, then dump their opinion off the list. These are not part of the group of people who are “prospectives,” that is, people who WILL participate in the evolution and rebuilding of the city.
See where I’m going? Those of us who want to see the city be “reborn” have to nurture the new generation of city users- the young and the empty nesters- not worry about people who think only in terms of shopping.
Make retail in the city unique- shops, boutiques, art galleries, etc.- goods that will never be found at Eastview but are of interest to the “smart set,” the hip, to browsers & walkers. Think Brooklyn and forget about the “don’t feel safe/no parking” set. They are the non-voters. ======== Note; I have purposely left out any conversation about white flight due to schools. That is such a big, and complex problem, it is separate from this aspect of downtown development.
It’s just like the old adage goes “If you don’t brand yourself, someone else will!” From personal experience, as a male in the 18-25 age range, I can tell you most of my peers believe that the downtown area is dead and/or dying. If you mentioned shopping, eating, etc. they would list off all of their favorite places to go and never even consider going downtown. It’s not because they think it’s unsafe or too far away, it’s because they don’t know what downtown has to offer.